The New York Times had an article a couple of days ago that pretty much lays out that Ryan Adams is a PoS. Since the article has come out, other women have come forward as well and basically comfirmed having similar experiences. Although never a fan of his solo stuff, I loved Whiskeytown and there are a couple of those songs that are some of my all time favorites.
It got me thinking about how do you love the art but hate the artists? It's not just confined to the music industry either. Picasso was a world class asshole (Sorry Jonathan Richman, I just went there), and Woody Allen definitely is too. But it's hard denying the greatness of their creations.
I have heard from a lot of people that they are done with Ryan Adams, not going to support him by buying albums, going to shows, etc. Which makes perfect sense, and something I can easily do as well. But what about when I'm in the mood to hear Excuse Me While I Break My Own Heart or 16 Days? He's already gotten my money. Is just listening to a song that does something for me "supporting Ryan Adams" or forgiving what he did? I could just find other songs that move me the same way (or not).
Does it bother you when a artist turns out to be a horrible person? How do you respond, do you separate the art from the artist? I am not sure there is a right or wrong answer, just curious on what people think.
Also drop your lists.
I'm impressed that you wrote this without mentioning FJM.
I think there is a difference between listening to the music and seeing them live. The personality comes out in the between song banter.
FJM: Fire Joe Morgan?
Edit: Free's comment clarified for me
I guess I differentiate between someone like Father John Misty who has a loathsome personality (which may in fact be an act) and someone like Ryan Adams who has done despicable things. Reasonable people can disagree about FJM's "persona." Reasonable people can't disagree about Ryan Adams' actions.
True.
1. Mix Master Mike “Sloh Beat” Anti-Theft Device
2. The Joy Formidable “Whirring” The Big Roar
3. Gui Boratto “Beautiful Life (Gui Boratto Remix)” Chromophobia Remixe Part 2
4. Two Fingers “That Girl (Instrumental)” Instrumentals*
5. The KLF “What Time Is Love? (LP Mix)” The White Room (US Version)*
6. Eric Copeland “Land of Foot” Waco Taco Combo
7. Grouper “Driving” Grid of Points
8. Digable Planets “Where I'm From (Ohridgnal 12")” Where I'm From
9. Two Fingers “Bad Girl (Instrumental)” Instrumentals*
T. Bob Marley & The Wailers “Redemption Song” Uprising
*Notes:
4,9. Amon Tobin and Joe Chapman made some great hip-hop beats and then got some offensive and lame rappers over them. Thoughtful then for them to release an instrumental version of their album.
5. Every few months, I feel like getting my head around the differences between all versions of the songs on the various singles and the US and UK versions of the album. The US album is shorter (due to removal of unlicensed samples from U2 and the Doors... of crowd noise only), but the "LP Mix" of this song is longer on the US version. It still has samples from MC5: "Kick Out the Jams, !srekcufrehtoM"
This is a great topic. Thanks.
For me, a lot of how I respond has to do with the idea that people are all complex, capable of good and bad. Not to get into politics (indeed, I'm not making a political point here, just a point about another area where this comes up), but I often find myself citing this same thing in certain political discussions. For example, there's often a standard line about how a "good guy with a gun is the only way to stop a bad guy with a gun". And no matter how one feels about guns, I find this point to be somewhat silly. Because how can you tell who is a good guy and who is a bad guy? There are no "good guys" and "bad guys" there are just people, all of whom do good things and bad things.
And for me, so long as those two things aren't inexorably intertwined, I can appreciate the good actions/creations while still being horrified by and condemning the bad things (now, if they are intertwined - like if "doing horrible things specifically made Ryan Adams' music better", that's different.). A person is not simply the actions and choices they make. So appreciating the good things is not a blanket endorsement of the person and any and all actions they take. Similarly, condemning the actions is not saying the person is without any worth (think about this with children... we punish our kids for the wrong actions they take, but we still love them.). It isn't about the good things outweighing the bad, or vice versa. It's about them being distinct.
Kirby Puckett comes immediately to mind for me. I loved the guy as a baseball player, as a public persona for the franchise, and he did a lot of really good, impressive things in that role. But he obviously did some awful things too. People are complex, and they are more than their actions.
All good points. Did you read the article? Ryan Adams used his position as a well renowned artist (some have used the term genius) to manipulate and use people, some of whom were underaged. So he was using his art and the reputation that this art granted him to get things that we wanted. Does that change things? In one particular sad story, an underage girl -- who seemed to have a future in music -- basically stopped playing because of her experience with Ryan Adams.
I did. It's actually kind of the opposite of the intertwining example I gave above. I think those two types of intertwining are distinct from one another. This is much more akin to, say, a Louie CK, or a Bill Clinton, or any situation where a person of influence abuses that influence. The fact that it happened to be his art that gave him the influence ties the two together more closely, obviously. And I can definitely see someone who takes a similar approach as me saying "those are too connected for me to appreciate his art anymore." I wouldn't bat an eye at that conclusion, nor at someone who says "they're still distinct enough for me."
Personally, I don't listen to much Ryan Adams, so it's kind of a tough one for me to actually wrangle with. I'll not listen to him any more, but it also won't be any less.
if "doing horrible things specifically made Ryan Adams' music better", that's different.
What if his good music allowed him to do the horrible things? I think the problem is that it's too late to divorce ourselves from the terrible things.
I adored Kirby Puckett, I stood and cheered for a full 5 minutes along with my whole high school when he walked into our gymnasium for some publicity tour thing. That hero worship probably contributed to him being able to hurt more people because he knew he could get away with it.
I bought Swans CDs, I recommmended Swans to people, that probably contributed to Michael Gira being in a position as a valued and influential musical collaborator to take advantage of at least one person.
If I don't buy any more Twins / Kirby Puckett / Swans / Michael Gira things, it's too late. I've already contributed to their awful acts. That's why it's so tempting to respond to these with "I never listened to Ryan Adams anyway" because we can at least absolve ourselves of that particular guilt. Supporting existing power structures (like celebrity and fame) in our society means supporting the bad things that come with that. We're seeing more and more of how those structures have created more and more victims of sexual violence, and how we deal with that is a pretty huge question without easy answers.
"People are complex" is important to remember when dealing with friends and people that we know, but the power dynamic is so different when it comes to celebrity, that I think that consumers of that celebrity have to have a quicker dismissal reflex.
The follow up question, I suppose, is, "aren't we contributing to the next celebrity abuser right now?" If if not engaged in any sort of celebrity worship, if you're patronizing someone by buying their albums now and 10 years down the line they're the next revealed offender... you contributed to that in the same way as Puckett/Gira/Etc., right? What are we to do about that? Just burn the bridges when we come to them and call ourselves clean for having done so?
I also think there are cases when denying the art/influence/good things the person did can be a case of cutting off our nose to spite our face. If we find out now that Plato was a creep (probably was), should we stop teaching The Republic? If Picasso's assholery would nowadays be considered criminally offensive, should we stop showing his paintings? Now, to some extent, I think there's a very real difference between someone who is alive now being financially supported and the value we can derive from deceased artists' productions. Maybe we should revoke a person's copyrights as part of any civil or criminal penalty. From now on, whenever Ryan Adams' music gets played, his victims get the proceeds.
"aren't we contributing to the next celebrity abuser right now?"
Yes.
That was implied by the question!
As to what we are to do about that...
1 - believe survivors
2 - be aware of the power structures that we create and who they disadvantage
3 - take sexual violence seriously
4 - smash the fucking patriarchy
A-freaking-men.
This. All of this.
\m/
Yes to all of this. Also, it seems worth noting that not all people are accorded second chances in equal measure in our culture. When we talk about not viewing people as all good or all bad (a sentiment I completely agree with), we need to recognize that historically, straight white men have been able to come back from all manner of terrible acts much more so than any other group.
I could say more, but I've got a meeting to lead, so I'm going to stop here.
Oh yeah, you're absolutely right about the inequality of second chances. I'm not comfortable talking about it on-site, but if you're curious about how this has played out in my career in the law, I could go on for hours. Suffice it to say, I've done my damndest to act on this issue.
01. "Intro" – The Lemon Twigs – Brothers Of Destruction
02. "Little Mascara" – The Replacements – Tim
03. "Soria Maria" – Mount Eerie – A Crow Looked At Me
04. "Portland" – Middle Brother – Middle Brother
05. "Will They Bury Us?" – Elliott Brood – Days Into Years
06. "Sardaukar Levenbrech" – Grimes – Geidi Primes
07. "Belle" – Al Green – The Belle Album
08 "Higher" – The Lewis Connections – Purple Snow: Forecasting The Minneapolis Sound
09. "Bury It" – CHVCHES – Every Open Eye
10. "Someone Is Waiting" – Neutral Milk Hotel – On Avery Island
1. Time After Time--Cyndi Lauper
2. Got a Hold on Me--Fleetwood Mac
3. Anticipation--Carly Simon
4. Happy Together--The Turtles
5. Waterloo--ABBA
6. I Only Want to Be With You--Bay City Rollers
7. Make Me Lose Control--Eric Carmen
8. The Story of My Life--Neil Diamond
9. Here Comes the Sun--The Beatles
10. Passionate Kisses--Mary Chapin Carpenter
This is the first time in a long time that none of James Taylor, Gordon Lightfoot, or Jim Croce showed up on my list.
Back home, for a while the pastor at our Lutheran church was as former guitarist for the Turtles.
Cool!
I, personally, can’t separate the two. I just drop them unless there is an extremely clear exoneration of them down the line. In this era, with the amount of people who are exposed as being awful, it’s become pretty routine to just disconnect from artists for me. Sometimes it is easier than others. The hardest one for me was Michael Gira of Swans/Angels of Light. He was a personal hero for a number of reasons. Seeing Swans live was a top 3 all time show for me. I very, very regularly listened to his records. I had a ton of merch. When the allegations came out against him, I felt sick. But I sold all the vinyl and threw everything else away. I believe survivors, and I believe Larkin Grimm.
There is so much media out there to consume, I will always find something. That makes it a lot easier.
I suppose there are plenty of classic artists I listen to that are problematic on multiple levels. However, in the modern era, I've found it hasn't been hard to let these guys go. I don't really have a lot of examples in music (never listened to Ryan Adams; no particular reason I didn't and always hearing he was a d-bag never made me feel like I was missing anything), but certainly in other media. I loved CK, but haven't felt any compunction in removing him from my devices and life.
Real quick point on that last one, I would consider to think about re-considering if any of these idiots showed any ability to understand what they did and try to atone for it in any way. These jagoffs just keep digging themselves deeper though.
if any of these idiots showed any ability to understand what they did
I think if any of these idiots had an ability to understand what they did, then they wouldn't have done it in the first place.
obviously. that's in reference to these recent comebacks, however unwanted.
Yeah, I know. I guess I'm saying that I don't have a lot of faith in their ability to actually redeem themselves in this particular way. Louis CK might still be hilarious, but he's also still broken in this regard, and it isn't his art that will redeem him.
I've enjoyed the discussion on Comedians in Cars Drinking Coffee when Seinfeld brings up Bill Cosby to his guests, and how that affects their view of his history in standup. Most are able to divorce the comedy from the comedian, but it's complicated
Thanks for great discussion. Not bad for a bunch of dudes (and Pep). Rare on the interwebz these days sadly. This is like a safe space for me sometimes.