Hope everyone has a safe and fulfilling Thanksgiving. And stay out of the FZ. It can’t be worth it.
33 thoughts on “November 28, 2019: To Be Giving Thanks”
Instead of arguing politics this year (my in laws views really suck), I got a bottle of Malort.
I am giving thanks that my wife is not here to strangle my sister in law. But I may still do it.
Sounds like you needed the malort more than I did. Swap that with her wine and she won't come back next year.
The funniest thing that happened was after I got a bunch of people to take a shot, my wife accidentally to a drink from a cup that solstice hadn't finished. She was not amused.
I disagree. Everyone should argue politics. It is indeed one of the things* most worth it. You just need to be clear that you're more invested in the relationship you have with the person you're arguing with than the argument itself.
*My list of things worth arguing about is more or less the whole of human experience.
Yep. Often the only peoples minds you can change are the ones who know you and trust you.
Though most of my family is ideologically similar so Thanksgiving is generally pleasant. Occasionally have to push back on a systemic racism comment but even that's gotten better. My dad even now supports low-income housing and zoning laws to help people of color which is something I never thought I'd see. Honestly I think part of it is the current administration is so cruel that he's finally seeing how policies impact people not like him.
Concur. The key for me is that you have to start from a place of love and respect, practice good rhetoric, avoid logical fallacy, prefer reasoned arguments over emotional triggers, and use the occasion as a teaching moment. There is a strong anti-intellectual bent in much of America and it has been used for political gain for a long, long time. The one thing on which I will not give an inch is when people insist that their ignorance (especially the willful kind) is just as valid as my education and knowledge. I worked hard to get educated, and I didn't stop learning when I graduated because education should be a lifelong endeavor. And learning starts with listening.
We're visiting NBBW's family in A.L. for Thanksgiving today. The dining guests are pretty split on things political. I think I'd count two of the group as hard-right, three moderate conservatives, three moderate leftees, and four teenagers/millenials with no opinions other than another helping of potatoes. Much Euchre was played.
Whenever talk turned political with the FIL, I would "pivot" (NBBW's phrase, not mine).
Me: So, who are your favorite MN sportsters, of all time?
He: Wha? Oh... Well, for football, Bronko Nagurski - or maybe Randy Moss. Basketball, Whitey Skoog. Baseball, Harmon Killebrew. Hockey, who cares!
Me: Fran Tarkenton, Mark Olberding (turn-around jump shop from the baseline)/Janet Karvonen (dad had a meat locker at Wolf Lake, not far from New York Mills), Tony Oliva, Dan Fishback.
My wife's family is very conservative. Catholic farm family in Stearns County. Rarely do I get approached on politics due to the fact that I deal in the facts. I can usually pull out some study or data point that totally blows up whatever they are dishing out. It has always been respectful conversation, but I do not pull punches to call a misinformed take exactly what it is. Funny thing is, a couple of them have shifted to the middle over the years as they have begun to search out facts on their own. My conversations yesterday were more about kids in college, how you pay for it, and empty nesting. Oh, and high school football... lots of high school football.
lots of high school football
Blooming Prairie Awesome Blossoms, present!
Had the longtime football/baseball coach from Spamtown CC over for dinner Saturday and to suffer through the Gopher game. (He lives in the same retirement community as my parents). He is an incredibly spry and fit 91.
We all agreed that "Blossoms" is a great h.s. team nickname.
my FIL spent a week at the slaughterhouse recently. He wants to spar about politics at every turn, always has. This makes me crazy because he knows that I disagree with him completely and that I’m unwilling to engage an unfair fight between feelings and facts. This most recent trip included several attempts to rip the Native American population around Mille Lacs that resulted in me breaking my no politics stance. I let too much fly and alienated any further discussion by labeling his position as racist. Spoiler alert —-> it was racist. Spoiler alert —-> that doesn’t matter. I see what y’all are getting at, but when the rubber meets the road of defending the right to say shit that is egregiously wrong.... well I just can’t.
---> further more I'm totally down with you being you, but there are negative consequences to holding bigoted points of view. I defend your right to have that position doesn't mean that I condone it. And not condoning it means that maybe we don't have to interact that much anymore.
I hear ya. I have basically no interaction with my extended families on either side because their views are abhorrent. I'm also in the process of freezing out my neighbor because certain events over the past few months have him saying to quiet parts way out loud.
I think it's pretty great that you labeled his position as racist rather than calling him personally a racist. That tends to be more effective, anyway. If someone is going out of their way to push your buttons and be cruel, sometimes you just have to make your position clear. And then they can decide if they want to be around you anymore or not.
If you're talking with someone a little less aggressive, sometimes it can work to say, "I used to think that way too, but then I learned this and now I have a different thought on it." I can almost always use this because it's true that when I was 12 years old or whatever (honestly, I could say 32 years old as well) I was super ignorant on race issues so I can always come from a stance of "I've learned along the way."
I was super ignorant on race issues so I can always come from a stance of "I've learned along the way."
Aye, this. Always this. We are all always learning. Or at least, we should be. It always makes me think of this XKCD.
It's a big part of why I put my initial comment up in the first place - we've got to plant seeds of change for others to grow. You never win an argument in the short-term, only ever in the long-term, because people don't change their minds (or hearts) quickly.
Regarding race specifically... I think it is especially important that white allies be willing to take a role in teaching others. Obviously this first (and continuously) requires learning themselves about the experiences of people from other races. But it is important that we be willing to speak out on these issues because those who deal with the effects of racism already have all of those issues on their plate, and adding "teach white people how not to be racist" is a giant heap of stuff they shouldn't also have to deal with. But we do always need to be teaching (and learning), so white allies stepping up can be important.
Congrats, you get to be today's 10,000 to learn about Angola is a bit darker than Mentos.
That's part of why I like the comic form of this particular truth.
I’m unwilling to engage an unfair fight between feelings and facts
FWIW, I'm getting more to the point of thinking I can't engage a certain segment of the population who won't engage honestly. I'm thinking of just responding to some of them with "OK, Putin."
How?! How did it come to that? We're talking about the dadgum Ruskis! I thought this was America!
There was a group of 6-8 year olds playing football across the street last week and one actually yelled, "Dadgummit!" when he dropped a pass. It cracked me up.
Not really FZ, but everyone else is speaking in hushed tones
"Putin" just doesn't sting enough. I think the word itself doesn't deliver, from an auditory angle. I vote for "OK, Vladimir."
And really, for the conspiracy-loving audience, I don't know why the Russia angle doesn't hit home a little harder.
This is something like our 30th Thanksgiving we spend with our friends' family (Runner girl's godparents and godsisters), and by golly, if a Twins fan and a White Sox fan can be civil with each other*, it's a wonderful world.
*I try to keep the pity out of my voice
I think of this scene a half-dozen times every year on Thanksgiving:
OMG. Mrs. Twayn and I have used this as a catchphrase for anything involving someone getting left out for years and years. Gotta love Levinson.
Avalon remains one of my favorite movies. I love the Baltimore Trilogy.
Okay, is it just me or are the Detroit Lions uniforms really fugly?
The Lions uniforms are ugly. I don't know about you.
Bazinga.
😅
Legit LOL
They're really bad. (I don't typically even pay attention to football, and I noticed!)
Instead of arguing politics this year (my in laws views really suck), I got a bottle of Malort.
I am giving thanks that my wife is not here to strangle my sister in law. But I may still do it.
Sounds like you needed the malort more than I did. Swap that with her wine and she won't come back next year.
The funniest thing that happened was after I got a bunch of people to take a shot, my wife accidentally to a drink from a cup that solstice hadn't finished. She was not amused.
I disagree. Everyone should argue politics. It is indeed one of the things* most worth it. You just need to be clear that you're more invested in the relationship you have with the person you're arguing with than the argument itself.
*My list of things worth arguing about is more or less the whole of human experience.
Yep. Often the only peoples minds you can change are the ones who know you and trust you.
Though most of my family is ideologically similar so Thanksgiving is generally pleasant. Occasionally have to push back on a systemic racism comment but even that's gotten better. My dad even now supports low-income housing and zoning laws to help people of color which is something I never thought I'd see. Honestly I think part of it is the current administration is so cruel that he's finally seeing how policies impact people not like him.
Concur. The key for me is that you have to start from a place of love and respect, practice good rhetoric, avoid logical fallacy, prefer reasoned arguments over emotional triggers, and use the occasion as a teaching moment. There is a strong anti-intellectual bent in much of America and it has been used for political gain for a long, long time. The one thing on which I will not give an inch is when people insist that their ignorance (especially the willful kind) is just as valid as my education and knowledge. I worked hard to get educated, and I didn't stop learning when I graduated because education should be a lifelong endeavor. And learning starts with listening.
We're visiting NBBW's family in A.L. for Thanksgiving today. The dining guests are pretty split on things political. I think I'd count two of the group as hard-right, three moderate conservatives, three moderate leftees, and four teenagers/millenials with no opinions other than another helping of potatoes. Much Euchre was played.
Whenever talk turned political with the FIL, I would "pivot" (NBBW's phrase, not mine).
Me: So, who are your favorite MN sportsters, of all time?
He: Wha? Oh... Well, for football, Bronko Nagurski - or maybe Randy Moss. Basketball, Whitey Skoog. Baseball, Harmon Killebrew. Hockey, who cares!
Me: Fran Tarkenton, Mark Olberding (turn-around jump shop from the baseline)/Janet Karvonen (dad had a meat locker at Wolf Lake, not far from New York Mills), Tony Oliva, Dan Fishback.
My wife's family is very conservative. Catholic farm family in Stearns County. Rarely do I get approached on politics due to the fact that I deal in the facts. I can usually pull out some study or data point that totally blows up whatever they are dishing out. It has always been respectful conversation, but I do not pull punches to call a misinformed take exactly what it is. Funny thing is, a couple of them have shifted to the middle over the years as they have begun to search out facts on their own. My conversations yesterday were more about kids in college, how you pay for it, and empty nesting. Oh, and high school football... lots of high school football.
lots of high school football
Blooming Prairie Awesome Blossoms, present!
Had the longtime football/baseball coach from Spamtown CC over for dinner Saturday and to suffer through the Gopher game. (He lives in the same retirement community as my parents). He is an incredibly spry and fit 91.
We all agreed that "Blossoms" is a great h.s. team nickname.
my FIL spent a week at the slaughterhouse recently. He wants to spar about politics at every turn, always has. This makes me crazy because he knows that I disagree with him completely and that I’m unwilling to engage an unfair fight between feelings and facts. This most recent trip included several attempts to rip the Native American population around Mille Lacs that resulted in me breaking my no politics stance. I let too much fly and alienated any further discussion by labeling his position as racist. Spoiler alert —-> it was racist. Spoiler alert —-> that doesn’t matter. I see what y’all are getting at, but when the rubber meets the road of defending the right to say shit that is egregiously wrong.... well I just can’t.
---> further more I'm totally down with you being you, but there are negative consequences to holding bigoted points of view. I defend your right to have that position doesn't mean that I condone it. And not condoning it means that maybe we don't have to interact that much anymore.
I hear ya. I have basically no interaction with my extended families on either side because their views are abhorrent. I'm also in the process of freezing out my neighbor because certain events over the past few months have him saying to quiet parts way out loud.
I think it's pretty great that you labeled his position as racist rather than calling him personally a racist. That tends to be more effective, anyway. If someone is going out of their way to push your buttons and be cruel, sometimes you just have to make your position clear. And then they can decide if they want to be around you anymore or not.
If you're talking with someone a little less aggressive, sometimes it can work to say, "I used to think that way too, but then I learned this and now I have a different thought on it." I can almost always use this because it's true that when I was 12 years old or whatever (honestly, I could say 32 years old as well) I was super ignorant on race issues so I can always come from a stance of "I've learned along the way."
I was super ignorant on race issues so I can always come from a stance of "I've learned along the way."
Aye, this. Always this. We are all always learning. Or at least, we should be. It always makes me think of this XKCD.
It's a big part of why I put my initial comment up in the first place - we've got to plant seeds of change for others to grow. You never win an argument in the short-term, only ever in the long-term, because people don't change their minds (or hearts) quickly.
Congrats, you get to be today's 10,000 to learn about Angola is a bit darker than Mentos.
That's part of why I like the comic form of this particular truth.
I’m unwilling to engage an unfair fight between feelings and facts
How?! How did it come to that? We're talking about the dadgum Ruskis! I thought this was America!
There was a group of 6-8 year olds playing football across the street last week and one actually yelled, "Dadgummit!" when he dropped a pass. It cracked me up.
This is something like our 30th Thanksgiving we spend with our friends' family (Runner girl's godparents and godsisters), and by golly, if a Twins fan and a White Sox fan can be civil with each other*, it's a wonderful world.
*I try to keep the pity out of my voice
I think of this scene a half-dozen times every year on Thanksgiving:
OMG. Mrs. Twayn and I have used this as a catchphrase for anything involving someone getting left out for years and years. Gotta love Levinson.
Avalon remains one of my favorite movies. I love the Baltimore Trilogy.
Okay, is it just me or are the Detroit Lions uniforms really fugly?
The Lions uniforms are ugly. I don't know about you.
Bazinga.
😅
Legit LOL
They're really bad. (I don't typically even pay attention to football, and I noticed!)